June 19, 2023
274: Dark Side of Member Vetting at Your Club
What if you could uncover the true personalities of potential members at your private club, creating a more harmonious environment for all? That's exactly what we discuss in this captivating episode with our special guest, Paul Dank from Kennis/ Member Vetting. Paul shares his unique approach to background research, utilizing public records and open source information to reveal crucial details about applicants that can't be found with a simple Google search.
We dive into the importance of evaluating an individual's values and culture when considering membership and the challenges clubs face when nominating potential members. Paul emphasizes the need for clubs to adapt to changing times and conducts thorough due diligence, understanding the legal implications of choosing members for private clubs. We also discuss the limitations of current member vetting processes and how applicants often control most of the information in the process.
To wrap up, Paul shares some fascinating stories and examples of how Kennis/ Member Vetting has helped private clubs uncover hidden details about potential members, ultimately leading to better decision making and a more harmonious club environment. Don't miss this eye-opening conversation that will transform the way you think about member vetting and its potential benefits for your private club.
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01:10 - Improving Member Vetting at Private Clubs
11:19 - Fact-Based Due Diligence for Club Membership
21:16 - Background Checks for Private Clubs
33:34 - Club Membership Screening and Fit
44:16 - Better Private Clubs With Background Checks
WEBVTT
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Hey everybody, welcome back to Private Club Radio.
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I'm your host, comedy Magician, the club entertainer, denny Corby.
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Hope everyone is having a fantastic time of day whenever you are listening.
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This is an interesting episode because we talk about how well do you really know your members and the people you're bringing in to your club.
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I'm going to bring on Paul Dank of Kennis Slash, member Vending, and they are all about doing the background research.
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They help uncover the true personalities of potential members.
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They know how to find people's ghost social media accounts.
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We're going to go over what a ghost account is.
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It is fascinating because we talk about how Kennis leverages public records and open source information to find data points that are relevant to the individuals, because Google is pretty limiting.
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actually, there is a much, much bigger web out there and they know how to uncover hidden details about your potential members and evaluate how an individual's values and culture can be crucial when considering membership at your club.
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I find this totally fascinating.
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This is wild.
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We talk about some cool stories.
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I join you in welcoming a very interesting episode of Private Club Radio.
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Please welcome from member vetting slash Kennis, my new friend, paul Dank.
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This is just really fascinating and to me I thought this would have been a common practice.
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Why don't you get us up to speed?
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Who are you?
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What do you, kennis, and member vetting do?
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Ian, we'll take it from there.
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My name is Paul Dank and I'm the president of a company called ASG Investigations.
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Five.
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Five and a half years ago ASG was approached by a client in the private equity space who was on the board at a club and the club had a unique problem.
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The problem was there were essentially two camps of people within the club who were very divisive toward one another.
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What they found is they had something in common They were from the same ethnic group and they were all in the same line of business, either working for company A, whose owner and president was a member, or company B, who was the rival and the competitor.
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It got to the point where it was so bad there were fisticuffs at the Easter Cotillion and it was bad.
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What they said is what they want to do is to try and vet out who was being nominated by anybody in either one of these camps to say do they work in that business and are they going to have the same kind of will toward their competitor?
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because we're going to say no, we're just going to stop adding fuel to the fire.
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It was unusual.
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We'd never really done work for private clubs.
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We started doing this and shortly after that general manager left and went to work for another club and he said I don't have that problem anymore, but I don't want to go without what you give me After a couple cups of coffee.
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What we sort of learned was that the applicant controls most of the information in the process.
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Even if they're nominated by a great member, that member probably doesn't know as much about them as they think they do.
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Even if they do know one set of facts, there might be information in the background that tells a different story.
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Clubs care about the character of the person.
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It's not just about are they a threat?
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something obvious like the person is a criminal, right, but they need to see who the people really are.
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He loved it and he took us with him.
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Then we were at two clubs.
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Well, then somebody else went to another club and they told a friend and all of a sudden we had five or six clubs that we were doing this kind of due diligence at.
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We looked at it as a line of business and sort of learned that the club industry hasn't really changed much in their vetting process in probably 150 years.
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It's usually a combination of there's a nomination, there's some kind of a meet and greet, and then maybe you post the applicants' name on the club website for members to come and speak up about if they know something, maybe last but not least, as you do some kind of a pedestrian background check similar to what's found in employee screening.
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The problem with those is, again, you have people that nominate somebody for membership for a variety of reasons and they don't always know the person that well.
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They don't have that lifelong bond.
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They're not their lawyer, psychiatrist, doctor, godfather, their children.
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It's just somebody that you know and you got along with them in some context so you invite them.
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Maybe it's the person pushed you to invite them, their vendor, their client, their friend of a friend.
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I have a sister-in-law who lives about an hour and a half from us.
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She and her husband went to dinner with my wife and at my club and two or three weeks later she calls and says need to nominate somebody for membership in your club.
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I said who is this person?
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Why am I doing this?
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She said I don't even know the guy, but his girlfriend is really important in my business.
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I told her we went to dinner there and she wants him to get in the club.
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I think those kinds of situations happen a lot more than people may be taking into account.
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The other thing is, when it comes to a meet and greet, you're going to have a cocktail reception for prospective members or you're going to have a board member take somebody out for lunch in nine holes.
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I would argue that even Vladimir Putin can get through one of these sessions without screwing it up.
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You know you're being watched.
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You know you have to be on your best behavior.
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You have a vested interest in getting in the club, so you're going to have to have whatever they want you to act.
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The people that are doing the evaluating are trained in evaluations.
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These are everyday folks and I'm sure they're incredibly smart.
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We can all be really smart, but also really bad judges of character.
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The only way to be a good judge of character is to know a lot about the person ahead of time and then spend a great deal of time observing them when they have their guard down and they're behaving naturally.
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A meet and greet or nine holes to meet a board member doesn't cut it.
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So again, you're not going to get a lot of information that that applicant doesn't want you to have.
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Then, when it comes to posting names, i love this because it's effective when you have a member who knows something and is willing to come forward.
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but in truth, i've been a long time member of my club.
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I miss a lot of those emails, so I don't see who's on the list.
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I'm not paying attention.
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You have that.
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You have a combination of things where I've heard really bad things about this person, but I've heard them from someone else I don't know at first hand, so I'm not going to step forward.
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Maybe you get people who just don't want to get engaged in the process.
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I don't want to run into this person at Pigley Wiggly and have a confrontation.
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I don't want to see them at church and there's an issue.
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I was the person that blackballed them And so I think it's limited.
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It's great when it works, but it's limited.
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I'm in less than that, at least to do a pedestrian background check, and I would venture to say that there are very few people who are recently released from prison who want to run out and drop $80,000 to join a country club.
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If you can afford a country club and you just got out of prison, you're probably worrying about behaving for a while and not your social network.
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So I think that it just falls short.
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And so we saw this opportunity and we wanted to take it slow and really learn from our GMs and our membership directors.
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Are we adding value and are we really providing something that's meaningful?
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And every club that signed up with us has stayed with us.
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So it's really been fantastic And I think we've come across the new best practice, in large part because, if you think about most of the private club members, these are folks that come from the top 1% of society.
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I think they expect some level of vetting.
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They expect to have people that are there for the same reasons.
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They are Social reasons, people that are aligned with the club in its culture and its values And unfortunately get a whole bunch of people who want in for all kinds of reasons And there are predictive things in their past that are likely to show up again and therefore make them preventable from happening at your club.
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To fellow members, to guests, to staff.
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You can stop it at the onset And the final piece is most clubs find it much easier and much less drama-filled bar someone entry in a club than to kick them out.
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And so here we are And it's been great so far, met lots of fantastic people and I feel like we're really helping.
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So it's been neat.
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So about how many steps would you say?
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is the average vetting process?
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Four For four steps or so?
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Well, in traditional vetting it could be up to four, and there are some clubs, don't get me wrong.
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there are some clubs that do more exotic things.
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They say you have to have right, you have to have six nominations and you have to come before a panel of people.
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I think you have to look at how exclusive the club is and who you are.
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If you're already a US senator, there probably isn't a lot that's unknown about you and the vetting process can go quicker.
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But I think if you're someone who is moving from, you know the club with maybe a $30,000 initiation fee and now they're gonna go to a $100,000 club and it's a whole new pool of people.
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that club may have more steps, you know, but the four is pretty much the limit, at least as far as we've seen on any kind of a larger scale.
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So what would separate your process then from, like, a normal vetting?
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So what we do in terms of what is the fact-based due diligence portion of it is we look for information that's available and open, publicly available information, and we're at a really interesting time in terms of the evolution of technology and living in a free country, and so what I would argue is that right now, there has never been more information available about Americans waiting to be found If you know where to look for it then at any point in history And we're now leaving footprints.
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With the advent of social media and so much data going online, we're putting footprints about people out there that they don't know are there.
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So it's not that I'm posting things on social media that talk about me.
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Somebody that might be two and three steps away from me is posting a photograph and tagging me in it and putting me at a place, or I'm part of an association And I did something for the association and somebody else memorialized that in its own, and it's out there waiting to be found.
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So Kennis looks not only for things like public records, meaning court documents and police runs to houses, those sorts of things.
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We also look at all of the information that's available through open source on the web, and it's crazy abundant And I think where there's a little bit of a disconnect with people into what, in terms of what we can find versus what they can find, is Google.
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Google is the problem child.
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I love Google.
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Most of us think of Google as a replacement for God, because you will type things in there that you won't tell your doctor or your lawyer or your spouse.
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You know, when you're at your darkest moments, you get on Google and start typing things looking for help.
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The problem with Google is Google realistically indexes less than 5% of the web, so that means the other 95% of that information could be responsive, could have important things, but it's not Google worthy.
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And remember, google is a private company.
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They have their own agenda and they want to put forth and pull information that they deem to be relevant.
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There's also a whole bunch of information out there that's unstructured or semi-structured, meaning you need an expert to look for it and say, ah, that's actually connected to Denny, that's not nothing.
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There's something here and here's where I can find it.
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So we go in and we look for all of that information that's available And the way it really works is you have an individual and they have a sphere.
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You have your sphere that you create and then maybe you have a spouse and she creates a sphere and there's overlap, and then you have kids and you have NamNam and you have Grandpa Joe and you have your two buddies from college and you have the person you used to work for and the hilarious bartender, and we have all these spheres and they grow.
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Those people all may have potential information that leads back and points to you and your character, and my team has to be able to number one, identify them And, number two, search for anything that's relevant So we're able to harvest a lot of information.
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I'm not saying that everybody in America has lots of information out there.
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There are plenty of us who are really boring and have almost no footprint.
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But the point is we can look at that information, present that to our clients so that they can look at it and say number one, is everything that we were told true?
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Are we starting this relationship out with lies and embellishment to get in the club?
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And then, secondary, what didn't they tell us about that?
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we should probably know and would be apropos to ponder as part of the membership decision process.
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So when I see that the applicant really controls everything they do, they control everything that's on the paper.
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Most of the time, they control what the sponsor is saying about them and knows about them.
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They've probably been controlling what they see, and then they go home and they have, you know, their dollhead collection in the basement with a couple of people chained up.
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We don't always know that, and so the idea is we're able to look for all the information that's already available, waiting to be found, and coalesce it into one report and then make it easy for a client to look through and say, okay, there's something relevant for me to pay attention to or not.
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Gotcha Now, when you're pooling all of this data and let's say you find that person, how many chained up bodies are too many?
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You know, i think you have to look.
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If your club is more goth based, i would say you know, you can have three or four bodies in the basement.
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That decision really comes down to culture And, if you think about it, america's pretty diverse place and our clubs are very diverse.
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So there are clubs, let's say, in Washington or Northern California, who are very much opposed to a lot of conservative ideas, and I think that they find that if somebody is taking a strong stance on that, or maybe already doing things on the internet that violate your decorum policy and they're going to be toxic to your culture and your community, maybe it's just not a good fit.
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Remember, i look at member betting as is the person going to fit in here?
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Does it make sense for them to be here?
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Forget about the fact that they want to be here, or they think they want to be here, right?
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Forget about their motives.
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Are they really going to be a good member of our community?
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Because that's what a club is all about And that's what I expect that a mind club is.
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There's a sense of camaraderie and community, and when you get a toxic personality or maybe that's just a personality that's not a good fit, let alone someone who's a threat.
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You know that's what you're using this tool for or are capable of using it for if you wish.
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Yeah, after our talk.
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You know we were having a conversation I think we had like one or two talks before you were teaching me about everything And because I just find like just different industries fascinating as well And my head immediately kept going towards negative.
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But this isn't not just a bad thing, it's really.
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It is just information to see if they're going to be a good fit or not, because that is really what it boils down to, like.
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This isn't just about like hey, did they do bad things?
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This is just getting information about them together.
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Yeah, it really does.
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The narrative they provide Pan out Is it accurate?
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You know clubs use some.
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I guess there's another informal approach that clubs can use and I recommend it, and that's to reach out if the person claims that they were a member of another club or elsewhere, to reach out to that club.
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Now, that club may not always respond.
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That's something we can assist with as well.
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But I think that's another great way to help with your vetting process, because if someone has been a successful member in the club environments and where else, they get how the game is playing and they're actively getting into something they understand.
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I have met at my club multiple people who it was their first club experience and it's not what they expected, right, and so they probably aren't going to stick around very long because they're not getting out of it what they thought they were.
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Or they're doing it just for business development reasons and things like that, and it turns out in the end it's just not a good fit.
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But that's a big part of it is trying to help them with that fit And if they have prior club experience, that's usually a big win.
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Do you have any like cool examples of how you've helped clubs make more informed kind of membership decisions?
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Yeah, i mean we constantly are finding information that is of interest to our clients and helps them.
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The negative is probably the easiest to focus on.
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So there was a club that recently because it's pretty obvious, right, there's a club that had an individual apply for membership and her spouse was going to come along And the spouse unfortunately the spouse was not currently on the sex offender registry but had been, and so in a traditional FCRA compliant employment screening background check you would not have seen that the person was off the list.
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It was too far out of date.
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I think if you end up on that list, you're probably probably better suited somewhere else, especially a family oriented club, and so, yeah, i think that the wife applied specifically so that there wouldn't be any eyes on the husband, right, i think that that's a pretty easy one.
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We found one where recently, where we have a gentleman who owns quite a few properties in New York City and is through his holdings, is arguably a slumlord, and there's been multiple articles and reddits and blogs about the fact that person does the very minimum to keep the regulators from seizing the buildings but leaves people in impoverished filth and then is in Connecticut applying to join a country club.
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So those examples of again talk about character.
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You have to understand there's also, even though people have money, they still behave the same.
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There's a certain percentage of us that like to present well where we want to, and then we show our true selves in ways like we set up ghost accounts, right.
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So I'm going to have three or four ghost social media accounts where I'm going to trash your podcast anonymously Well, anonymous is more difficult when I'm looking for you And we can find many of those ghost accounts and link them back to the people and show what their true colors are.
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So we've had many of the examples where people have these ghost accounts and they're spreading hate, they're spreading all kinds of messages, they're ostensibly terrorizing people and then they're going to go in golf nine And so when you, when you don't look, you know it's not going to come up.
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But, it's nice to know about those personalities when you get them.
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We had another club where there was a sad situation.
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The club had an applicant.
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The couple was great, they do everything right, but they had an adult son who enrolled in college out of state.
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He got to the college and there's something wrong with them, i'm guessing made a comment to someone in his dormitory that if he didn't get into the fraternity he was rushing, and his assigned roommate did, apparently had problems with the roommate, that he was going to kill the roommate and then kill himself, and that he had the guns and was going to do this.
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So now, meanwhile, the club and mom and dad are far away.
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But what happens when wealthy people get into legal trouble?
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:45.576
they muster all the resources and create attorneys, and what they did is they.
00:20:45.576 --> 00:21:00.385
They convinced the judge in the state where the university was to remand him to the parents custody in their state, far away, with the agreement he would never come back to the state And then, rather than going to prison, he could reside there.
00:21:00.385 --> 00:21:05.249
The problem was club that mom and dad were applying to until your age 23,.
00:21:05.249 --> 00:21:17.998
The adult children are free to use the club independently as much as they want, and so the club was going to get great mom and dad and they were going to get, hopefully, a young man who's getting care and wouldn't be a problem.
00:21:17.998 --> 00:21:31.105
But that's a big if right You have just a few months before you were going to kill someone because you were disappointed about a decision, and then yourself I question whether that's the right time for him to be at the club.
00:21:32.175 --> 00:21:34.221
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of heavy.
00:21:34.221 --> 00:21:38.511
Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:38.592 --> 00:21:49.017
And then you know we didn't see the other examples, i guess, are the easy ones right, where you get someone who you know, you get someone who is openly and publicly doing something like fat shaming on social media.
00:21:49.017 --> 00:21:58.207
Right, sounds ridiculous, but if you're doing that openly on social media and you're calling people out, you're going to behave that way at the club too, and is that?
00:21:58.207 --> 00:22:03.756
I don't know, that's a personality that fits in anywhere, but that's what you get if you don't look again.
00:22:03.756 --> 00:22:09.195
Everybody was smiling and nodding and the check clear, so in normal circumstances they'd get in.
00:22:10.078 --> 00:22:15.393
That's wild And you just find that stuff on the normal.
00:22:15.393 --> 00:22:15.973
It's just up.
00:22:15.973 --> 00:22:17.417
Here's another one, here's another one.
00:22:17.479 --> 00:22:27.565
Here's the thing you know, the vast majority of people are who they say they are And maybe there's a data point or two that they forgot to mention, or there's something small that they embellished.
00:22:27.565 --> 00:22:34.987
But you get the people that do things like say I was a Navy SEAL, well, no, you were in the Navy but you weren't a Navy SEAL.
00:22:34.987 --> 00:22:38.030
So you're starting out the relationship telling people that you're a SEAL.
00:22:38.030 --> 00:22:40.178
There's a way to verify whether somebody was.
00:22:40.178 --> 00:22:41.180
We had that.
00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:46.017
We've, by the way, we've also had two real SEALs who have come through.
00:22:46.017 --> 00:22:47.604
So they're out there.
00:22:47.604 --> 00:22:54.171
But you know, again, you can't fact check if you're not using some kind of a resource like ours to do so.
00:22:54.171 --> 00:22:59.001
So just, it just leaves management in an information, you know, dark spot.
00:23:00.565 --> 00:23:10.880
I'm from Detroit And people probably remember this if they're football fans, but Matt Patricia was our head coach of the Lions And this was this was really a nothing issue.
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:28.083
But a reporter from the Detroit Free Press, i believe contacted the general manager of the Lions and said did you know that, coach Patricia, who had already been hired and working there for months, did you know that he was arrested for sexual assault when he was in college?
00:23:28.083 --> 00:23:31.913
The bad news is, management didn't know.
00:23:31.913 --> 00:23:36.935
They had no clue And I'll give you the backstory and they were technically in the right not to know.
00:23:36.935 --> 00:23:43.753
The problem was the response was I don't know what you're talking about, which then fueled the fire like napalm.
00:23:43.753 --> 00:23:47.515
And then it's picked up and it's on the front page of the USA today.
00:23:47.515 --> 00:23:55.651
Well, manufacturing was hired as an employee and that's a regulated kind of background check and he wasn't convicted of anything.
00:23:55.651 --> 00:23:58.125
The problem were all the optics.
00:23:58.125 --> 00:24:06.085
If he had said well, of course we know about that, he wasn't convicted of it and for employment purposes, we can't even consider that it would have been over.
00:24:06.085 --> 00:24:12.154
Instead, it lasted for days and trust me, up here I couldn't turn on sports talk radio for two weeks.
00:24:12.154 --> 00:24:15.332
But the problem was management was uninformed.
00:24:16.346 --> 00:24:24.144
In the case of most private clubs, they're uninformed, and the arguments against using the service are usually a couple of things.
00:24:24.144 --> 00:24:25.936
It appears invasive.
00:24:25.936 --> 00:24:27.144
Why do we have to snoop around?
00:24:27.144 --> 00:24:29.298
Now it's snooping around again.
00:24:29.298 --> 00:24:30.144
This information already exists.
00:24:30.144 --> 00:24:37.144
Do you want to pay somebody to aggregate it so you can see it, or do you want to pretend that it's reasonable not to know?
00:24:37.144 --> 00:24:42.913
I question whether it's reasonable not to know when it's just a few dollars that you're talking about.
00:24:42.913 --> 00:24:46.035
And what if the person is dangerous and something happens?
00:24:46.035 --> 00:24:53.016
If somebody wants to really have an eye-opening experience, google the term country club sexual assault.
00:24:54.008 --> 00:25:10.070
I stopped looking at 25 pages and it's news story after news story after news story about something that went wrong member that attacked a member, member that brought a guest and attacked the guest, member that attacked staff, children of members who've attacked people.
00:25:10.070 --> 00:25:15.590
And these are clubs that you're thinking are crazy and it can't happen here.
00:25:15.590 --> 00:25:17.490
It's random and it's everywhere.
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It's in liberal, conservative, north, south, east, west.
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It doesn't make a difference.
00:25:22.736 --> 00:25:24.144
Unfortunately, that's part of it.
00:25:24.144 --> 00:25:26.933
Here's a bigger problem that comes with that.
00:25:26.933 --> 00:25:36.055
If something bad happens and the person wasn't vetted, i can guarantee you that two things are going to happen.
00:25:36.055 --> 00:25:49.653
There'll be a lawsuit and the plaintiff attorneys are going to hire guys like us to say let's find everything about this person and their background, and they're going to say this club, let the guy in, but he had all of these things that look like they're building up.
00:25:49.653 --> 00:26:00.125
Right, when you look at predictive behaviors and we use that throughout all forms of risk management right, predictive behaviors, we're no different in our character information.
00:26:00.626 --> 00:26:01.611
That's what you're using it for.
00:26:01.611 --> 00:26:13.770
So if you don't look, you're not going to see that things were building up and we have a series of events and this person probably isn't stable, but I'm not looking for it.
00:26:13.770 --> 00:26:20.794
So therefore it can't be all accountable And every club has liability insurance and they'll have an insurance carrier that will get in and represent them.
00:26:20.794 --> 00:26:26.144
But how does it look to say no, what we did is we decided not to look at all for any facts.
00:26:26.144 --> 00:26:28.144
We just decided to go with what people told us.
00:26:28.144 --> 00:26:30.144
We keep it subjective around here.
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It's been a tradition for 80 years.
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It seems rather unreasonable.
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