315: Board Chats - A Balancing Act of Priorities w/ Mac Niven

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to this episode of Board Chats here on Private Club Radio brought to you by our partners, concert Golf Partners. Boutique owner operator of luxury golf and country clubs nationwide. If you, your club, a club that you know, a club a friend might be a part of, is interested in recapitalization, head on over to ConcertGolfPartnerscom, set up a confidential phone call with Peter Nenula and see if you are a good fit. Since 2011, concert Golf has helped over 30 clubs elevate their member experiences while gaining financial freedom, preserve your club's legacy, enhance your club's amenities and see your membership. I'm your host, denny Corby. In this episode I chat with McDonald Niven Mac, mcm master club professional and a really fun guy to talk to you. Really interesting story. So around the year 2000, he was fired from Hague Point after six months and he thought he just sucked as a manager his words. But he reviewed his past performance and, learning from others, figured he might not be as bad at the job as he thought. He was visiting his daughter at Harvard in 2009. And he had a conversation with Professor Richard Hackman to which a college professor asked him what is the biggest challenge as a club general manager? Mac told him the relationship between the GM and the directors, and Hackman said why don't you become the expert in it? And that's where our story begins today. From meeting the professor Mac not only found inspiration, but also a mentor. Even though he didn't live for too much longer the professor Mac still with us. But after digging deep into research, mac began sharing his insights through publications all across the industry and pursuing the prestigious MCM. Master of club management, mac is a cornerstone here in the club management world, actively engaging in research and maintaining a robust network of managers and club professionals. He's a reservoir of real time, relevant knowledge, ready to share insights and spark discussions on topics that matter in the ever evolving world of private club management. So in this episode we are going to dig deep into the topic of why some managers rotate jobs more frequently, while others are able to maintain their places, their clubs and their employment. So everyone, please welcome Mac, donald, mac, nevin, ma, mcm. Who's Mac?

Speaker 2: 3:15

Well, it's a good question. Mac's just a guy who stumbled into the club business by accident. I got in the old fashioned way I was a member of the country club and they said, hey, you've been in a restaurant business, why don't you run the club for us? I said, yeah, sure, we'll give that shot, and it turned out to just be a pretty good set. The issue I have is that I'm a bit of a business guy, so I failed to understand the important parts of the club business for about the first 30 years. And I was doing it. And then he definitely finally hit me when I was talking to a good friend of my, robert Carr, who was recently asked and it came to me. You know I've been doing this for 35, 30 years and I've been wrong. It's all about the director, not the club business. So anyway, that's. You know, I've been in the business for a while and we're on the country, run a whole bunch of different clubs. I have quite a network of folks that I work with to help me learn the business and hopefully I help share that with them. So that's kind of what I'm doing.

Speaker 1: 4:20

And I liked what we were talking about, and it's the rotation of management, rotation of managers and the ability to maintain or not maintain their clubs and positions, which is it tends to be. What about a two to three year loop?

Speaker 2: 4:38

for four years the average three years and it's been that way for decades, which was amazing to me because I would think that we figured this thing out. Unfortunately, we really haven't and it is. It is what it is, and you know it takes a toll on managers and their families. So it really is kind of a tough thing. You know income is pretty good, no question about that for the most part, but you know, taking the toll on the family. I talked to. You know hundreds of managers and you know it's. It's tough when you have to move continually and when you don't know it's coming. That's the only issue too.

Speaker 1: 5:13

Because it can come pretty quick and sometimes as a surprise.

Speaker 2: 5:17

You know it's funny because in one of the surveys I did, I had a certain. When I did my MCM survey, I had 563 respondents to it and I lead like 68 of them were directors, which is handy. It's hard to get directors to respond. But anyway, when I asked how long did you know that you were going to make a change, the director, the presidents, were saying yeah, we knew three, four, five, six months in advance that there was going to be a change coming, whereas the managers were saying now you're about a month. Well, that tells you the directors are planning and managers are getting kind of a change, kind of bright, a blindside. And that's one of the things I'd always heard too people saying, yeah, you know you're an idiot if you don't see it coming. That's not so much.

Speaker 1: 6:08

How do you see it coming?

Speaker 2: 6:11

Well, you can. You can see if they are actually planning over a long period of time to let you go. Sometimes you can see, because they'll still stop talking to you. They'll kind of avoid you. You know, you know, stop, yeah, right. Well, it's yeah, they're still paying you for the most part. But what the problem is is that the group dynamics at a club is particularly strong. Group think that's a big deal, because I've seen them turn very, very quick when they get into that. Because, again, like I mentioned earlier and my brilliant daughter once said one time, you know the table stakes are too low. It's not a big deal to. It's more about their personal relationships than anything else. You know, again, it's that cell actualization, part of the pyramid that they're in. So really isn't about the business. And besides that, as we all know, wealthy folks do one thing really well and that's get what they want. You know what I mean. It ain't about money, it's about whatever they're wanting. And with the club business, it's more about their emotional tie and their self actualization and how they feel about themselves. So you know, I talked to managers about this too and a couple of things you're interested in. Manages across the board say, yeah, if it comes down between me and a president and his friend, they're going to go with a friend pretty much every time. That's just the way it works. So you got to be careful about who you're getting in between each or get between anybody. And no, by the way, that's not a good thing to do, you know, pushing back and getting in between members and directors, it's not not a winning solution. The other thing I asked is in one of the surveys was on a scale of one to 10, how important is it managing the fragile egos of the directors? That came back as an eight, and that's the point. You got the egos. The better man is going to.

Speaker 1: 8:12

I'm looking through the CCM book. I don't. I didn't see ego management in here, right.

Speaker 2: 8:20

And that's that's kind of part of my. My problem is that we seem to setting ourselves up for failure because First we want to the CCM All right, certified club manager. Okay, you're, you're an expert. Now you can tell your folks, you're the expert, you're CCM. And then they went to a CEO concept, chief operating officer. And then they went to the CEO concept. These are all labels of people. Have read it out. I got news for you. Just to care less what you call yourself. Okay, they really don't. So we're kind of setting ourselves up for failure because we're being told by our own professional group leaders hey, you're the expert, you got to tell them how to do that. Oh man, I don't work Because you start making people mad because they have fragile egos and it's just natural, it's. It's not like they're all great people and they're all very successful, and that's what the best part of the problem is that they're very successful in their own business. They've been doing their own business for 30 years. They're successful enough. They could pluck down 1015, 100, 500 grand, whatever to give you a club, and their club business is different. So, as a director, all of a sudden they get thrown into this thing and they're going in their own back of their mind. They're going. What the heck is going on? What is all it's not saying? You know I got people complaining to me about you know their stake on Friday night. I'm the CEO of a major company. What's, what kind of crap is this? But that's what happened. So then the default to what got them in their business got them successful, which is normally digging in into details, and that's where my chromatic comes from too, and that's the number one turnoff for pretty much anybody, particularly for manage. You know they'll leave because of the micromanic, but that's, it's nitro. That's what people do when they default. You get smart people who are, you know, a types, hard pressing. You know why be successful. They're given a situation they don't understand. They default to where they used to be, and that causes problems. But that is what is and again, it's a real natural thing.

Speaker 1: 10:23

Now you've, you said the average is about three years. You've, you're, you've done. What about nine year stents, like you do about triple the average?

Speaker 2: 10:34

No, no, I had, I've had a couple of nine year stents, but I've had a six month stint, a couple of six month stints I'm oh, yeah, I've had, well, and that's where six months.

Speaker 1: 10:45

I don't mean to ask, but what happened then?

Speaker 2: 10:48

Well, the first time it happened to me was because it was a really odd situation, because the entire board turned over and the new board that came in said hey, we don't want the GM concept anymore, we're going to go back the old way, we're going to run it from committees, we don't need you, you're gone. That was, that was what it really stung me that way. But what's going on here? You know what I mean, because it was on an island. I bought a house on the island and set up a real estate company. It was just, you know, just a whole combination of things. I'm going, you're kidding me, I said to the president. I said, by the way, you've killed me. I've been here six months and you're letting me go. You've killed me, I'm on my way out, I'm done. He said, yeah, well, all right, good luck. And so I was gone and pretty much the same thing happened. The other six months spent was again in an eight-year-old situation. That was a situation where, when you go in what class of people I'd be careful of when you go to a club that says we want change, we want to go to the next level Right now, that should be a concern for you, because clubs don't change rapidly. So you get a hard driver coming in to say, oh okay, I got the direction. We're going to make a bunch of changes. People ain't following you. You know, you got the old guard who really likes where it was, and that's when things gets it stirred up. And that's what happens when there are several things you got to be careful of when you try to headlock Jevvie, and one of them is what kind of club you're going to. That's really important.

Speaker 1: 12:17

Some of the major things like that you've learned throughout this whole process because you're also a MCM, which is kind of a big deal.

Speaker 2: 12:27

Not really. No, I'm seriously. Well, it depends. I mean the CMA I'm not sure what they're doing for for NCM's. Maybe it's just me, but I get no deference for being an MCM or a CCM or whatever. It doesn't really matter. And I can tell you this right now that the membership at a club and leadership could care less. They don't know and they don't care Really, don't I tell them on the NCM and they're going yeah, what? And I explain a little bit to them and they go, yeah, okay, good deal, you know, hey, I need to get a drink, you know? So that's, that's the way that works. So I went and finding out about the manager tenure. I could get technical. So let's be careful. Like, if I get ahead of you, just slow me down.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Okay, let's roll, baby.

Speaker 2: 13:11

Okay, let's roll. So here's a technical issue. There's really two facets to longevity. Okay, manager and the club. Are you with me so far?

Speaker 1: 13:21

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:22

Okay. So I tested the managers. I said, okay, I wanted to find out how people did things differently. We had a whole series of questions and I had like I had, uh, I think, 107 responses. So I had a pretty good response to the survey and I asked questions like you know, do you walk to dining room? Do you have relationships with the membership? Do you do things in personal level than never. She's awkward. The stuff like pretty much everybody's about the same when it comes to technical aspects. So then I went back and I interviewed a bunch of them uh, 32 of them interviewed. I'm sure it turns out that what really amounts to is is the political savvy that people have, is being aware of what's going on and in particular, there's a couple of folks who are really really good. Mitchell Platt at uh Cosmos Club was an issue character because he spent like 30 years at one club and moved to the Cosmos Club and he's been there for 15, 20 years, whatever. I think he started in the business when he was about 12, but at any rate, that's different. Lots of times what happens is a guy who's been at the club for 25, 30 years based in grass, his greener, goes to another club and then all of a sudden he's like, okay, but no, you're on a two, two, three year rotation and it's all gone On the same talk in a club that hires somebody after they've had that three year manager does the same thing. But at any rate I digress there. So so, so people do the same thing. It's a political savvy. And the one guy who really interested me too, uh, was at San San Antonio Coach Club. Marvin is the general manager there and he said to me one time that you know he was at the club and there were factions, and that's a problem when you have the wing of boards split and you have factions. You have the old garden, you've got the new guard and his key was he basically played both sides but he played him with neutrality. You know he would. He would keep everybody informed of what's going on and what's the general theme was. So when the new guard took over, he wasn't just booted, which is the normal process, is one of the new guys can make your guard, and it didn't Smart enough to figure out how to play both sides and be neutral and have the winning hand. And he's been there now for, you know, I think, decade. That was pretty good to play a trick on his bar. So anyway, my point is from a manager standpoint the technical aspects once you're in the job is you've got to be politically static, which I think is funny, because when I took BMI one way back in the nineties um, they were talking about none of those. Stay out of politics, do not participate in politics. That's a big mistake. You've got to be aware of politics. So the second facet here's the clubs and basically what's it? No, their brand are going to be good to work for. You just kind of know what you're going into when you go into that club, because they they will appreciate longevity. You know they generally have managed. You've been there for 15, 20 years and they're looking for somebody to follow suit with that. One Problem you'd have with clubs is when you go to a club, as I said, you want to go to the next level. They want to make change. You know they don't really know their brand yet and they're searching for stuff because you've got so many members who like the club just the way it is and then you've got the new guard who wants to make the change. So if you're not politically savvy enough to understand the difference and to work through it. You know it's going to be a short duration. The other thing is you can tell right off the bat if you got a. If you're talking to a club and they've had three managers in 10 years, that's the first question I asked how many managers you've had in the last 10 years? You've had three. You know that's the way they are. Culture is what culture does. If you've been rotating, you're going to continue to rotate unless something occurs that makes them, the club, want not to do that. They have to make a tremendous change to make that adjustment. Otherwise it's going to be a three year rotation. This is what they do. So that's the two classes.

Speaker 1: 17:16

The word change when you say I'm just trying to expand a little bit. So you know you're talking about bringing in change, all this change. What does that change mean?

Speaker 2: 17:26

So when you're talking about this change, well, there lies the point is that most of them don't know what change is. It's, it's out there, it's a change. Well, yeah, we want to change, we want to get better. What's better? Well, I don't know. It's like talking about compensating in giving the manager, the general manager, some forward and sent him. And sent him on what? Because the club business is so subjective. You know, there is you a objective major to the club. It's all subjective. It's it's how the members like it, how the members like you. So that's the thing about changes. People want to change, but they really don't know what it is. Do you want to make more money? Well, all right, most clubs, private clubs you're not trying to make money. It's the value of the profit is in member satisfaction. Well, how do you measure that? Okay, you can do the KPIs and do surveys and stuff like that, and that's a good thing. It depends on what kind of year he is and who's taking the surveys and all that. That's probably the best way to do it. But your point is well made, which is change. They don't even understand what change is. Therein lies your problem. You go in, they want to change, and everybody's going oh, what's the change? We really don't know, but you're going to figure it out and if you don't, well, we'll fire you. Bring somebody else in who can figure it out. That's what happens.

Speaker 1: 18:41

Politics and communication Right.

Speaker 2: 18:44

And there lies the part of the problem with with leadership trying to figure out what to do. Okay, first of all, the the noring is a year for a president. First of all, it comes in. I know what's going on. In six months, we still don't know what's going on. By the end of his term, he doesn't know what's going on, but he's expected to to to make this change. Nobody really knows what it is. It's a very difficult situation.

Speaker 1: 19:08

Well, and then you're very, I was very, I was going to say then you have the manager, who's new there also, cause they, they're only going to be, they're only old, then they're two years, they're still learning.

Speaker 2: 19:16

The blind lay in the blind, yes it is, and the manager is just doing his thing, going about his business. But the other thing is a lot of business at the club gets done away from the board meeting for sure. A lot of decisions get made, you know, at eight o'clock a night over cocktails in the bar, that's. That's difficult too. Managers don't know. I mean, I'd been in a whole bunch of fights. I didn't know I was in cause. It was all going in around the background and nobody's talking to you because they're uncomfortable talking to you. I'm not used to it. How do you, how do you try to?

Speaker 1: 19:48

change that? How do you try to fix that? You you know you said it took you what? 30 years and what were some of like the clicks? What are some of the changes that you made to move that needle forward?

Speaker 2: 20:00

Well, as my good friend Calvin Boling at uh, angelic Club. The club told me it's about relationship building. You know, you really have to build a relationship, so you have to. That's that's the key is is communication. I've had people call me. Well, I think I mentioned to you about a club that Peter Nellah put me on and the first thing when that guy, when they get called me, I said, hey, look, let's talk about this a little bit, cause oftentimes it's just a communication failure to communicate between the directors and the GM. You know, let me see if I can work this out. And the guy said, yeah, no, we're not doing that, we're moving on. I said, oh well, all right, okay, then we'll talk about whatever I can do, for there were some other issues going on there. The fact is, I think communication is is a big deal and next, in building your relationship, you have to be open and honest and talking to folks as much as possible. The bottom, the problem is that's that doesn't save you, because what can happen is they're still going to talk to their friends and, as I mentioned earlier, a friend to a president has got much more sway than the GM president. That's just the way it works so you can create all the relationships you want. I think I mentioned a person I won't name him, but who is just like that Perfect manager, just a great manager, executive of the year. Next thing you know you're asked to leave because the new guy comes in and doesn't matter. That's the way it goes. So, unfortunately, in all the research I've done and all the managers I'm talking to, there are certain things that can give you a really good chance of having longevity, but the bottom line is there's nothing that's going to save you for certain Most managers that I know could squeeze out at some point in time.

Speaker 1: 21:44

And speaking of being saved, if your club is looking for recapitalization, one way to be saved is by calling Peter Danula in Concert Golf Partners. They are amazing at helping with that issue.

Speaker 2: 21:59

Well, he does. That's exactly right and I think he's growing. I talked to him back when he had 20. Now he's over 30 clubs now because people are getting it. Clubs are not that difficult to run and I thought it was interesting that his criteria basically was a certain volume number and the fact that it was run by membership, because that's what happens again. And one of the first clubs I went to there was a real club with lots of committees. I was sitting at a committee meeting. It was a golf committee meeting. It was six hours long. My eyes are glazed over. It was in the last of the fifth hour. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd stopped taking notes hours beforehand and I'm in a daze and I hear the. I hear the chairman say okay, all in favor, say aye, and it passed. He said, okay, this motion passed, but we're not going to tell anybody. I said, wait a minute. I didn't quite understand what did you say? I said, yes, the motion passed, but we're not going to tell anybody about it. I said, okay, no, I'm just saying that's what I'm saying the group dynamic there, that things can be done, that just you go, and what the heck? They would never do it in their own business and I know every manager I've ever talked to it's had that situation. We're going, what are these people doing? How do they belong here? Because that's what happens in the group dynamic.

Speaker 1: 23:25

That's been some of the fun conversations I've had is just you have these amazing, extremely successful people who are killing it and you bring them into this setting and this all function just goes out the window.

Speaker 2: 23:41

Just God. I was at a club meeting with all the who were they? They were the chairman of the golf committee and all this kind of stuff. So there was a couple of chairman of the golf, chairman of the house committee, with general managers, and it was lunchtime. So I'm going to get lunch and I'm going to sit with somebody I don't know and I see these two people, mature adults, members of a club, in animated conversations. I mean they were just focused on what they were talking about. And I went and sat down and listened for a moment and I almost coughed up a lung because the guy was a CEO of a major international accounting firm and the woman was an attorney and they were just just, I mean, intense on this conversation. It was over where to put the hooks under the bar for a woman's purse to hang on, but there was important to them, it was hugely important. I couldn't believe it, but that's what happens. Because it's important, they're focused, they're any type of personalized and by guy they're going to solve that problem. I thought that was a good one.

Speaker 1: 24:45

That's a good one. I've heard of like many things, from like burger buns to like dressings. That one's good, that one's good. I'm adding that one to the list. Purse hooks yeah, purse hooks, purse hooks. That's hysterical. What advice do you have? So you know I'm Joe manager, you know I've every club I go to it's two, three years. What are some actionable steps that I can take as a professional to change To? You know, start moving my own needle forward and making a better progression, just like you did Like. So basically, you know, how do you improve the communication? How do you take that step to? I don't want to say becoming that better leader, that better manager, but sort of no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 25:35

Well, it's a more savvy manager. Savvy leader, I mean. Managers have to be good at what they do. That's the bottom line. First of all you have to have fun and medals. Be a good man. That's the first. I mean. If you can't manage, then you know there's not much you can do for it. But I'm talking about people who know how to manage a club and the communication is quite simple Just tell them what you're doing. You know, I mentioned Robert Carr Again. We lost him a year ago and he told me that Bernie Ham Kutchkiel, when he was there he would come in at two o'clock in the morning to inspect the security and he'd call and leave a message on the president's phone and say, hey, I'm in here, I've checked in out, everything was good, no problems here. He keeps them in contact and he stayed at Birmingham for quite a while. Interestingly enough, he left and went to other clubs and then kind of got on that rotation again. But the point is communication is important. Creating relationships is really really important. But I think even more so is be careful about leaving a club because you think the grass is greener than the other side. Having longevity is important, so trying to stay at the club is is valued. The other thing is, I think the most important one is selecting the right club and not getting suckered into going to a club but you think you're going to flourish and change things for them. Again, be careful, understand how many managers they've had the last 10, 20 years, because that's going to be their, their type of, that's their tactic. If they've been turning rotating managers, you're not going to change that unless something happens. I think I mentioned to you earlier about McCarthy down there at Addison Reserve. When he got there 20 years ago they made the commitment as a, as a club, to do away with the committees, become a run like a developer, own club, and he has flourished in that environment, done a tremendous job down there. Everybody loves him. He's you know, he's a mentor to many, many managers. That's an oddity. Most clubs don't get there. They they talk about it but then it doesn't really happen because, again, the rotational nature of the board of directors. So the critical piece is when you go to a club, do your research, pay attention to it. The clubs that are good and successful can help. You are the ones that have the strong brand. They know who they are, they know what they want to manager and don't try and fool them. You know that's not going to be good. Don't try and fool them into into pretending you're what they want. You got to actually be what they want. It's like getting married. You better pay attention, you know. Don't try and fool.

Speaker 1: 27:52

I was just having a little bit of a conversation with the manager, just having this conversation about clubs and how the clubs that take everybody that applies for membership gets in. It's like I thought clubs were supposed to be a place of having some some sort of identity. And I think the same thing when you, it's the same same for a manager, it's the same for the employees. It's you know, you're, you're I was just talking to somebody else like you're, you're, vibe attracts your tribe. However you want to. You know whatever wording you have, but it's you know every manager shouldn't be for every club. Every member shouldn't be for every club. Every club shouldn't be for every manager. And you know it's it's same thing. Courting, you know having that, you know, date a little bit. You know making sure that that you are the right fit and not just taking any position because it's open or because because they they want to.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Well, that's not, that's not you've. You've said it for a point, which is how is the club attracting new members? And if they're reaching out to pretty much anybody who can come in, it's a problem too, because then you've lost your brand and you don't have that, that exclusive, homogenous nature of a club. Then you've got a whole bunch of different people. It's hard to, it's hard to please everybody. So that's another thing. And the problem that clubs faces the club business model is not like the normal economics model. All right, you cannot, you can, you can cut your. Well, see, you can't cut your later prosperity. We all know that. Okay, you can cut your way to solvency, and then floods have to do that. But a club that starts cutting their services and stuff to try and save money, that's not going to work, because the people who are trying to attract they have money. It ain't about money, it's about the value you bring to them and because, again, it's a self-actualization level of the hierarchy, they don't care about the money, they care about how impressive it is for me to be at this club, how prideful is it. And if you're at the bargain basement, it's not going to be successful. It's very difficult to be successful. So that's what clubs do and that's how they get themselves into that downward spiral. And it's very hard to get out of that downward spiral. So you can't, you can't cut your way into being a sensible club. You got to do the opposite. You have to really add value.

Speaker 1: 30:04

That quote. So I was just making a note on the time. You can't cut your way. I like that. It's a really good line. I like that a lot. You can't cut your way there, and it's it's a. This was like a sales thing, I was taught back. When it's like, you know, when value exceeds price, that's when, that's when people buy. So the same thing when you were just, you know, talking about trying to cheap it's. It's when you know as soon as that that price value that you know teeter totters the wrong way, when people aren't feeling they're getting their, their value is worth. That's when, uh, what's true here?

Speaker 2: 30:36

It goes on and what happens is the leadership is trying to save that bottom 10% who have trouble afforded the club anyway. They're going to leave you any out. But what happens is when you're trying to save that bottom 10, you're losing the 10% of the folks that really do have wealth who would come into your club. So it's just it's unfortunate that they're doing these backwards.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Yeah, prado or Prado, there we go, the 80, 20, 90, 10, however you look at it. So my my dad told me years ago business isn't difficult, people make it difficult.

Speaker 2: 31:13

She right, yeah, that was a wise guy.

Speaker 1: 31:16

So when you were like this, I was like, ah, clubs aren't difficult, the people make it difficult, but you need the people for the club. No, it was funny, covid.

Speaker 2: 31:26

COVID, everybody wants to know like COVID. When it was COVID first hit and it was scary and I got on a call with the board of the records and they were all panicking and I said, guys, slow down, slow down, slow down. Let me tell you something right now You're going to make more money during COVID than you're ever going to make when you're older. Okay, because you got to do is revenue, communities, culture, cost out and that's exactly what happened when everybody backed up and that's not going to cost. I gotta tell you something COVID was like the best thing that ever happened in country clubs.

Speaker 1: 31:58

I mean, it's an unfortunate thing, no question, but as far as the finances go, wow, clubs got a big benefit from that and the ones that needed help got it, like the ones that were failing, because then everyone went in the club, so it doesn't matter how good of a club you were, you were having a wait list. So the bad ones got that boost and that's when they should have been able to go. Okay, back to square one. We're level now, let's continue. That's when they get comfortable again and go back to their old ways, old habits. And then that's when so the good ones really utilized it properly and continued. The ones that just needed some help got it and continued to grow. And then there were a lot that just well.

Speaker 2: 32:46

The other thing is, even those clubs who were on the margin, at the lower end and I know I was at one just recently the ERC money, the government money, wow, that was a game changer for those clubs because all of a sudden they get infusion. You know, I'm six $700,000 to a club that's broke. Wow, now, all of a sudden you can do some stuff, take a breath. So it was big all the way around. The other thing you really want to add is you know I created the website nivincc. It's open source. It's got just a ton of stuff on there from other managers. It's got all the papers that I've written, all the research I've done, all the articles I've written that have been published on that website. So if anybody wants to just go and look at stuff, it's open to everybody. It's nivin, anna's Nancy, I B's Victor and Anna's Nancycc. I've counted on CC Open source, use stuff. If you use it and change it, just let me know. We'll put it back up for other people to use.

Speaker 1: 33:43

Love it. I'll make sure to put a link to that in the show notes. Sir, it was so nice to meet you and great to chat. I look forward to chatting more. This is a really good conversation, but have a fantastic day and thanks for being on.

Speaker 2: 33:58

You as well. Thanks so much, appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 34:05

Hope you all enjoyed that. Thanks again, mac. If you would like to learn more about him, head on over to nivincc where you can see a lot of the resources and papers and that we were talking about in the episode. This has been another amazing episode of Board Chats here on Private Club Radio, brought to you by our friends, concert golf partners, because it's not just about a business, it's not just about another club. It's about preserving and enhancing your club, keeping its values, keeping its membership, keeping its roots, its story. So to learn more, see some case studies or to contact Peter, set up a phone call, head on over to concertgolfpartnerscom. Hope you all enjoyed that episode. As always, like share, subscribe. Anything you can do to help our channel move forward costs nothing to you, means the world to us and our industry. Until next time.