Jan. 8, 2024
315: Board Chats - A Balancing Act of Priorities w/ Mac Niven
Ever wondered what it takes to keep the elite world of private clubs spinning? Step into the fascinating sphere of club management with our special guest, master club professional McDonald (Mac) Niven . We navigate the hidden complexities behind the scenes. Armed with anecdotes and insights, Mac unveils the challenges of a job where relationship-building eclipses all and how the bond between General Managers and club directors can mean the difference between a fleeting presence and a lasting legacy.
This episode isn't just about the hows and whys of private club leadership; it's a masterclass in the art of staying power within a notoriously transient field. For anyone looking to rise through the ranks of club management or breathe in the rarefied air of the private club world, this conversation promises to be an invaluable compass in an industry where political finesse is just as important as business acumen.
This episode is brought to us by our friends Concert Golf Partners
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00:00 - Challenges Faced by Club Managers
14:09 - Manager Tenure and Political Savvy
23:34 - Improving Communication and Club Management
WEBVTT
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Hey everyone, welcome back to this episode of Board Chats here on Private Club Radio brought to you by our partners, concert Golf Partners.
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Boutique owner operator of luxury golf and country clubs nationwide.
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If you, your club, a club that you know, a club a friend might be a part of, is interested in recapitalization, head on over to ConcertGolfPartnerscom, set up a confidential phone call with Peter Nenula and see if you are a good fit.
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Since 2011, concert Golf has helped over 30 clubs elevate their member experiences while gaining financial freedom, preserve your club's legacy, enhance your club's amenities and see your membership.
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I'm your host, denny Corby.
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In this episode I chat with McDonald Niven Mac, mcm master club professional and a really fun guy to talk to you.
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Really interesting story.
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So around the year 2000, he was fired from Hague Point after six months and he thought he just sucked as a manager his words.
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But he reviewed his past performance and, learning from others, figured he might not be as bad at the job as he thought.
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He was visiting his daughter at Harvard in 2009.
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And he had a conversation with Professor Richard Hackman to which a college professor asked him what is the biggest challenge as a club general manager?
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Mac told him the relationship between the GM and the directors, and Hackman said why don't you become the expert in it?
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And that's where our story begins today.
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From meeting the professor Mac not only found inspiration, but also a mentor.
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Even though he didn't live for too much longer the professor Mac still with us.
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But after digging deep into research, mac began sharing his insights through publications all across the industry and pursuing the prestigious MCM.
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Master of club management, mac is a cornerstone here in the club management world, actively engaging in research and maintaining a robust network of managers and club professionals.
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He's a reservoir of real time, relevant knowledge, ready to share insights and spark discussions on topics that matter in the ever evolving world of private club management.
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So in this episode we are going to dig deep into the topic of why some managers rotate jobs more frequently, while others are able to maintain their places, their clubs and their employment.
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So everyone, please welcome Mac, donald, mac, nevin, ma, mcm.
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Who's Mac?
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Well, it's a good question.
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Mac's just a guy who stumbled into the club business by accident.
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I got in the old fashioned way I was a member of the country club and they said, hey, you've been in a restaurant business, why don't you run the club for us?
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I said, yeah, sure, we'll give that shot, and it turned out to just be a pretty good set.
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The issue I have is that I'm a bit of a business guy, so I failed to understand the important parts of the club business for about the first 30 years.
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And I was doing it.
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And then he definitely finally hit me when I was talking to a good friend of my, robert Carr, who was recently asked and it came to me.
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You know I've been doing this for 35, 30 years and I've been wrong.
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It's all about the director, not the club business.
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So anyway, that's.
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You know, I've been in the business for a while and we're on the country, run a whole bunch of different clubs.
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I have quite a network of folks that I work with to help me learn the business and hopefully I help share that with them.
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So that's kind of what I'm doing.
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And I liked what we were talking about, and it's the rotation of management, rotation of managers and the ability to maintain or not maintain their clubs and positions, which is it tends to be.
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What about a two to three year loop?
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for four years the average three years and it's been that way for decades, which was amazing to me because I would think that we figured this thing out.
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Unfortunately, we really haven't and it is.
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It is what it is, and you know it takes a toll on managers and their families.
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So it really is kind of a tough thing.
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You know income is pretty good, no question about that for the most part, but you know, taking the toll on the family.
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I talked to.
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You know hundreds of managers and you know it's.
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It's tough when you have to move continually and when you don't know it's coming.
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That's the only issue too.
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Because it can come pretty quick and sometimes as a surprise.
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You know it's funny because in one of the surveys I did, I had a certain.
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When I did my MCM survey, I had 563 respondents to it and I lead like 68 of them were directors, which is handy.
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It's hard to get directors to respond.
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But anyway, when I asked how long did you know that you were going to make a change, the director, the presidents, were saying yeah, we knew three, four, five, six months in advance that there was going to be a change coming, whereas the managers were saying now you're about a month.
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Well, that tells you the directors are planning and managers are getting kind of a change, kind of bright, a blindside.
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And that's one of the things I'd always heard too people saying, yeah, you know you're an idiot if you don't see it coming.
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That's not so much.
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How do you see it coming?
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Well, you can.
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You can see if they are actually planning over a long period of time to let you go.
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Sometimes you can see, because they'll still stop talking to you.
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They'll kind of avoid you.
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You know, you know, stop, yeah, right.
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Well, it's yeah, they're still paying you for the most part.
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But what the problem is is that the group dynamics at a club is particularly strong.
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Group think that's a big deal, because I've seen them turn very, very quick when they get into that.
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Because, again, like I mentioned earlier and my brilliant daughter once said one time, you know the table stakes are too low.
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It's not a big deal to.
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It's more about their personal relationships than anything else.
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You know, again, it's that cell actualization, part of the pyramid that they're in.
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So really isn't about the business.
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And besides that, as we all know, wealthy folks do one thing really well and that's get what they want.
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You know what I mean.
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It ain't about money, it's about whatever they're wanting.
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And with the club business, it's more about their emotional tie and their self actualization and how they feel about themselves.
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So you know, I talked to managers about this too and a couple of things you're interested in.
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Manages across the board say, yeah, if it comes down between me and a president and his friend, they're going to go with a friend pretty much every time.
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That's just the way it works.
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So you got to be careful about who you're getting in between each or get between anybody.
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And no, by the way, that's not a good thing to do, you know, pushing back and getting in between members and directors, it's not not a winning solution.
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The other thing I asked is in one of the surveys was on a scale of one to 10, how important is it managing the fragile egos of the directors?
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That came back as an eight, and that's the point.
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You got the egos.
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The better man is going to.
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I'm looking through the CCM book.
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I don't.
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I didn't see ego management in here, right.
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And that's that's kind of part of my.
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My problem is that we seem to setting ourselves up for failure because First we want to the CCM All right, certified club manager.
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Okay, you're, you're an expert.
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Now you can tell your folks, you're the expert, you're CCM.
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And then they went to a CEO concept, chief operating officer.
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And then they went to the CEO concept.
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These are all labels of people.
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Have read it out.
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I got news for you.
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Just to care less what you call yourself.
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Okay, they really don't.
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So we're kind of setting ourselves up for failure because we're being told by our own professional group leaders hey, you're the expert, you got to tell them how to do that.
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Oh man, I don't work Because you start making people mad because they have fragile egos and it's just natural, it's.
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It's not like they're all great people and they're all very successful, and that's what the best part of the problem is that they're very successful in their own business.
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They've been doing their own business for 30 years.
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They're successful enough.
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They could pluck down 1015, 100, 500 grand, whatever to give you a club, and their club business is different.
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So, as a director, all of a sudden they get thrown into this thing and they're going in their own back of their mind.
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They're going.
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What the heck is going on?
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What is all it's not saying?
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You know I got people complaining to me about you know their stake on Friday night.
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I'm the CEO of a major company.
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What's, what kind of crap is this?
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But that's what happened.
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So then the default to what got them in their business got them successful, which is normally digging in into details, and that's where my chromatic comes from too, and that's the number one turnoff for pretty much anybody, particularly for manage.
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You know they'll leave because of the micromanic, but that's, it's nitro.
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That's what people do when they default.
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You get smart people who are, you know, a types, hard pressing.
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You know why be successful.
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They're given a situation they don't understand.
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They default to where they used to be, and that causes problems.
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But that is what is and again, it's a real natural thing.
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Now you've, you said the average is about three years.
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You've, you're, you've done.
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What about nine year stents, like you do about triple the average?
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No, no, I had, I've had a couple of nine year stents, but I've had a six month stint, a couple of six month stints I'm oh, yeah, I've had, well, and that's where six months.
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I don't mean to ask, but what happened then?
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Well, the first time it happened to me was because it was a really odd situation, because the entire board turned over and the new board that came in said hey, we don't want the GM concept anymore, we're going to go back the old way, we're going to run it from committees, we don't need you, you're gone.
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That was, that was what it really stung me that way.
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But what's going on here?
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You know what I mean, because it was on an island.
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I bought a house on the island and set up a real estate company.
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It was just, you know, just a whole combination of things.
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I'm going, you're kidding me, I said to the president.
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I said, by the way, you've killed me.
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I've been here six months and you're letting me go.
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You've killed me, I'm on my way out, I'm done.
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He said, yeah, well, all right, good luck.
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And so I was gone and pretty much the same thing happened.
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The other six months spent was again in an eight-year-old situation.
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That was a situation where, when you go in what class of people I'd be careful of when you go to a club that says we want change, we want to go to the next level Right now, that should be a concern for you, because clubs don't change rapidly.
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So you get a hard driver coming in to say, oh okay, I got the direction.
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We're going to make a bunch of changes.
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People ain't following you.
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You know, you got the old guard who really likes where it was, and that's when things gets it stirred up.
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And that's what happens when there are several things you got to be careful of when you try to headlock Jevvie, and one of them is what kind of club you're going to.
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That's really important.
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Some of the major things like that you've learned throughout this whole process because you're also a MCM, which is kind of a big deal.
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Not really.
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No, I'm seriously.
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Well, it depends.
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I mean the CMA I'm not sure what they're doing for for NCM's.
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Maybe it's just me, but I get no deference for being an MCM or a CCM or whatever.
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It doesn't really matter.
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And I can tell you this right now that the membership at a club and leadership could care less.
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They don't know and they don't care Really, don't I tell them on the NCM and they're going yeah, what?
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And I explain a little bit to them and they go, yeah, okay, good deal, you know, hey, I need to get a drink, you know?
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So that's, that's the way that works.
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So I went and finding out about the manager tenure.
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I could get technical.
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So let's be careful.
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Like, if I get ahead of you, just slow me down.
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Okay, let's roll, baby.
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Okay, let's roll.
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So here's a technical issue.
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There's really two facets to longevity.
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Okay, manager and the club.
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Are you with me so far?
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Oh yeah.
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Okay.
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So I tested the managers.
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I said, okay, I wanted to find out how people did things differently.
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We had a whole series of questions and I had like I had, uh, I think, 107 responses.
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So I had a pretty good response to the survey and I asked questions like you know, do you walk to dining room?
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Do you have relationships with the membership?
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Do you do things in personal level than never.
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She's awkward.
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The stuff like pretty much everybody's about the same when it comes to technical aspects.
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So then I went back and I interviewed a bunch of them uh, 32 of them interviewed.
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I'm sure it turns out that what really amounts to is is the political savvy that people have, is being aware of what's going on and in particular, there's a couple of folks who are really really good.
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Mitchell Platt at uh Cosmos Club was an issue character because he spent like 30 years at one club and moved to the Cosmos Club and he's been there for 15, 20 years, whatever.
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I think he started in the business when he was about 12, but at any rate, that's different.
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Lots of times what happens is a guy who's been at the club for 25, 30 years based in grass, his greener, goes to another club and then all of a sudden he's like, okay, but no, you're on a two, two, three year rotation and it's all gone On the same talk in a club that hires somebody after they've had that three year manager does the same thing.
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But at any rate I digress there.
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So so, so people do the same thing.
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It's a political savvy.
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And the one guy who really interested me too, uh, was at San San Antonio Coach Club.
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Marvin is the general manager there and he said to me one time that you know he was at the club and there were factions, and that's a problem when you have the wing of boards split and you have factions.
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You have the old garden, you've got the new guard and his key was he basically played both sides but he played him with neutrality.
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You know he would.
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He would keep everybody informed of what's going on and what's the general theme was.
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So when the new guard took over, he wasn't just booted, which is the normal process, is one of the new guys can make your guard, and it didn't Smart enough to figure out how to play both sides and be neutral and have the winning hand.
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And he's been there now for, you know, I think, decade.
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That was pretty good to play a trick on his bar.
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So anyway, my point is from a manager standpoint the technical aspects once you're in the job is you've got to be politically static, which I think is funny, because when I took BMI one way back in the nineties um, they were talking about none of those.
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Stay out of politics, do not participate in politics.
00:15:51.835 --> 00:15:53.059
That's a big mistake.
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You've got to be aware of politics.
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So the second facet here's the clubs and basically what's it?
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No, their brand are going to be good to work for.
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You just kind of know what you're going into when you go into that club, because they they will appreciate longevity.
00:16:11.357 --> 00:16:12.913
You know they generally have managed.
00:16:12.913 --> 00:16:17.077
You've been there for 15, 20 years and they're looking for somebody to follow suit with that.
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One Problem you'd have with clubs is when you go to a club, as I said, you want to go to the next level.
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They want to make change.
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:32.889
You know they don't really know their brand yet and they're searching for stuff because you've got so many members who like the club just the way it is and then you've got the new guard who wants to make the change.
00:16:32.889 --> 00:16:37.457
So if you're not politically savvy enough to understand the difference and to work through it.
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You know it's going to be a short duration.
00:16:39.509 --> 00:16:42.029
The other thing is you can tell right off the bat if you got a.
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If you're talking to a club and they've had three managers in 10 years, that's the first question I asked how many managers you've had in the last 10 years?
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You've had three.
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You know that's the way they are.
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Culture is what culture does.
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If you've been rotating, you're going to continue to rotate unless something occurs that makes them, the club, want not to do that.
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They have to make a tremendous change to make that adjustment.
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Otherwise it's going to be a three year rotation.
00:17:11.836 --> 00:17:12.500
This is what they do.
00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:14.772
So that's the two classes.
00:17:16.596 --> 00:17:21.548
The word change when you say I'm just trying to expand a little bit.
00:17:21.548 --> 00:17:24.525
So you know you're talking about bringing in change, all this change.
00:17:24.525 --> 00:17:26.121
What does that change mean?
00:17:26.595 --> 00:17:32.900
So when you're talking about this change, well, there lies the point is that most of them don't know what change is.
00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:36.778
It's, it's out there, it's a change.
00:17:36.778 --> 00:17:38.483
Well, yeah, we want to change, we want to get better.
00:17:38.483 --> 00:17:39.365
What's better?
00:17:39.365 --> 00:17:40.380
Well, I don't know.
00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:48.199
It's like talking about compensating in giving the manager, the general manager, some forward and sent him.
00:17:48.199 --> 00:17:50.204
And sent him on what?
00:17:50.694 --> 00:17:52.301
Because the club business is so subjective.
00:17:52.301 --> 00:17:55.522
You know, there is you a objective major to the club.
00:17:55.522 --> 00:17:56.325
It's all subjective.
00:17:56.325 --> 00:17:58.864
It's it's how the members like it, how the members like you.
00:17:58.864 --> 00:18:00.780
So that's the thing about changes.
00:18:00.780 --> 00:18:03.240
People want to change, but they really don't know what it is.
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:04.442
Do you want to make more money?
00:18:04.442 --> 00:18:08.844
Well, all right, most clubs, private clubs you're not trying to make money.
00:18:08.844 --> 00:18:13.152
It's the value of the profit is in member satisfaction.
00:18:13.152 --> 00:18:13.974
Well, how do you measure that?
00:18:13.974 --> 00:18:17.775
Okay, you can do the KPIs and do surveys and stuff like that, and that's a good thing.
00:18:17.775 --> 00:18:21.035
It depends on what kind of year he is and who's taking the surveys and all that.
00:18:21.035 --> 00:18:22.255
That's probably the best way to do it.
00:18:22.255 --> 00:18:25.326
But your point is well made, which is change.
00:18:25.326 --> 00:18:28.104
They don't even understand what change is.
00:18:28.104 --> 00:18:29.414
Therein lies your problem.
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